A Correspondence with Eric S. Raymond
In October of 2003, I received some excellent suggestions from Eric S. Raymond. With his kind permission, I reproduce our E-mail conversation here:
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:45:26 -0400 From: Eric S. Raymond To: Takashi Toyooka Subject: Your translation of Nausicaa I don't speak Japanese, but I have read a lot about Japanese history and culture. I am a very fluent speaker and writer of English. I have just seen Nausicaa with subtitling. I think your notes on translation are very intelligent, and that you have probably done a somewhat better hub than the subtitling I saw. I have a couple of suggestions for improvements. Your choices in translating placenames were clever and appropriate. Your rendering of Torumechia as Tolmechia was a particularly good creative choice. Interestingly, the subtitling I saw did the same thing. In English, "Valley of the Wind" sounds a little odd. In this context, especially in a placename and *especially* in a mythological or poetic context, it would be "Valley of the Winds" (plural). In English, "fox-squirrel" sounds a bit odd to a native speaker, but "squirrel-fox" does not. I would translate it that way. "Arsenious" is not a construction that a native English-speaker would naturally use. "Arsenic plant" is fine for this purpose. You missed a opportunity in choosing the name translations. The approach I would have taken is to pick an distinct existing language for each culture (Valley, Tolmechians, Pejite) and try to pick closest possible matches from withing that language. In particular, I would use the fact that the Valley people are costumed like Tsarist Russians and give them Russian and Greek names. Nausicaa fits in here historically, pre-revolutionary Russia used Greek names frequently because of Byzantine Church influence. Thus, I would render "Oo-babasana" as "Baba", which is not only the Russian word for grandmother (and one known to many English-speakers) I would render "Jiru" as "Yuri", eliminating the "Jill" problem. I would pick French as my model for the Pejité language (because that placename sounds close to French) and do the following: Asberu -> Pero (like French "Pierre") Rasuteru -> Estel (like French "Estelle") I would use Germanic names for the Tolmechian minor characters, since in English those in fact have vaguely militarist associations. It would fit with using French-like names for Pejité. Kurotowa -> Kurt I wouldn't change Kushana's name at all. Now, Yupa is an interesting case. He's mysterious, a bit of a sage, and a fearsome swordsman. I would either leave his name as is or make it more obviously Japanese! Your translation of Yupa's joke is good, but a bit stiff. In idiomatic English, he would be much more likely to say "I can hardly complain, can I?" That would be a stronger comic line. But this is a judgment call, because "I wish I were in a position to lecture her" is good if you want to portray Yupa as being bit professorial, tilting him a bit more towards a sage character. You don't need to translate the prophecy all the way back to Old English; very few Modern English speakers would understand that. What you *should* do render it in the early modern English of the King James Bible or Shakespeare. The First Act quote could go like this: He will come to us clad in a raiment of blue, Come down from the sky to a meadow of gold, The first line of this translation sounds very Biblical and thus sets the proper tone. The last two lines in the quatrain are plausible King James English as is. K'Shana admires the valley: The use of "fox" for "clever person" is a bit dated. I would translate that as "You're a trickster!" Kurotowa talks with the Titan: There is actually something closer to the Japanese that would work here. I would render it as "My ambitions stir with that monster's heart." The Tolmechian ambush: military English has a perfect idiom for translating "yonde-itana" in that circumstance. It's "They suckered us!". Yupa frees the Pejité brig: In American English it is unusual to use "the one" as a semi-pronominal reference. I would translate this as "A medal to the man who kills him!" -- <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a> "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." -- Barry Goldwater (actually written by Karl Hess)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:21:47 -0400 From: Takashi Toyooka To: Eric S. Raymond Subject: Re: Your translation of Nausicaa Hello, Thank you very much for your E-mail! I never expected such detailed feedback, certainly not from such a well-known person. Your suggestions were all fantastic, and I really appreciate that you took the time to write me with them. On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 08:45:26PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > I don't speak Japanese, but I have read a lot about Japanese history > and culture. I am a very fluent speaker and writer of English. I > have just seen Nausicaa with subtitling. I don't know if you poked around my web site at all, but if you didn't then you should know that I am a Canadian "nisei," which means my parents immigrated from Japan before I was born. So I'm (supposed to be) fluent in English. :-) I'm far more fluent in English than in Japanese, anyway. I'm not a writer by trade or by training, but I flatter myself that I have certain amount of talent. So I welcome any input from someone more qualified than me in this regard. > In English, "Valley of the Wind" sounds a little odd. In this > context, especially in a placename and *especially* in a mythological > or poetic context, it would be "Valley of the Winds" (plural). As a matter of fact, originally, I kept switching back and forth between plural and singular. One day, I decided to be consistent and switched them all to singular without really thinking. You're absolutely right that I made the wrong choice. > In English, "fox-squirrel" sounds a bit odd to a native speaker, but > "squirrel-fox" does not. I would translate it that way. I'm afraid I'm really attached to my "foxrat!" There are two things: in western Canada, some people call squirrels "tree-rats." Then, there's the marked similarity with the word "muskrat." These things, in my opinion, make "foxrat" the most natural-sounding translation. Your suggestion of using Russian/Greek, German, and French cultures as models for the Valley, Tolmechia, and Pejite is great. I often looked for models while translating (as a matter of fact, I usually saw Patrick Stewart in the role of Yupa), but I lack the anthropological knowledge to have cultural models for the peoples of "Nausicaa." If you have more observations or suggestions in this regard, I'd love to hear them. > I would render "Oo-babasana" as "Baba" Yes, "Grandma" was just left over from the Nishida script, but you're right: it's an unnecessary anglicization. > I would render "Jiru" as "Yuri", eliminating the "Jill" problem. That's great! Yes! Thank you! > Asberu -> Pero (like French "Pierre") > Rasuteru -> Estel (like French "Estelle") Yes, I considered "Estelle" but then, I thought, "Lastelle" works as a direct phonetic translation (in other words, if you wanted to render "Lastelle" in Japanese, it would come out as exactly "Rasuteru"). And, it sounds enough like a real French name, so I didn't think there was any need to stray from this phonetic rendering. As for "Asuberu," I wouldn't mind changing it, especially since "ass- bell" conjures unflattering images. But it's not a Japanese name; it is, in effect, a Japanese phonetic rendering of a foreign name, so I'd prefer to stay as phonetically close as possible. I think it should start with an "A," at least. > Kurotowa -> Kurt I like this. It's a lot better than any of the options I'd been thinking of... But I wish we weren't translating a four-syllable name into a one-syllable name. Do you know of any long forms of "Kurt" that sound vaguely like "Kurotowa?" > I wouldn't change Kushana's name at all. Yeah, maybe "K'Shana" is kinda Star-Trekky after all. Not an association I'd want to make. > Your translation of Yupa's joke is good, but a bit stiff. In > idiomatic English, he would be much more likely to say "I can hardly > complain, can I?" That would be a stronger comic line. But this is a > judgment call, because "I wish I were in a position to lecture her" is > good if you want to portray Yupa as being bit professorial, tilting > him a bit more towards a sage character. I think I'll leave the line the way it is, for now, but I'll keep your comments in mind. Yupa's language in Japanese is very serious. He hardly ever lets his hair down, so to speak, with the exception perhaps of this very line. So maybe it *should* be more conversational. > You don't need to translate the prophecy all the way back to Old > English; very few Modern English speakers would understand that. Good point. I probably wouldn't understand it myself. > you *should* do render it in the early modern English of the King > James Bible or Shakespeare. The First Act quote could go like this: > > He will come to us clad in a raiment of blue, > Come down from the sky to a meadow of gold, Thanks. That's much better. Just one small point: you've used "come" twice in a row, and it has a slightly different meaning in each case. May I ask why you changed "descend" to "come down?" Is "descend" a more recent word? Perhaps we should choose a different word for one of them? > K'Shana admires the valley: The use of "fox" for "clever person" > is a bit dated. I would translate that as "You're a trickster!" Maybe I misunderstand the word "trickster," but I'd have thought it would be closer to "practical joker" than "shrewd politician." Kushana is, of course, giving Kurotowa a good jab in the ribs, as in: "you play the political game so transparently, you bastard." > Kurotowa talks with the Titan: There is actually something closer > to the Japanese that would work here. I would render it as > "My ambitions stir with that monster's heart." Magnificent. It retains the poetry in the Japanese script. Thanks again for your feedback. There are some comments you made that I haven't replied to. That's just because I agreed with them and I didn't have anything more to say. It'll take me a few weeks to update my site. Cheers, -- Takashi Toyooka http://www.pobox.com/~ttoyooka/
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:49:54 -0400 From: Eric S. Raymond To: Takashi Toyooka Subject: Re: Your translation of Nausicaa Takashi Toyooka: > I don't know if you poked around my web site at all, but if you didn't > then you should know that I am a Canadian "nisei," which means my > parents immigrated from Japan before I was born. So I'm (supposed to > be) fluent in English. :-) I'm far more fluent in English than in > Japanese, anyway. Oh. I thought your primary language might be French. > > Asberu -> Pero (like French "Pierre") > > Rasuteru -> Estel (like French "Estelle") > > Yes, I considered "Estelle" but then, I thought, "Lastelle" works as a > direct phonetic translation (in other words, if you wanted to render > "Lastelle" in Japanese, it would come out as exactly "Rasuteru"). And, > it sounds enough like a real French name, so I didn't think there was > any need to stray from this phonetic rendering. That's a good point. > As for "Asuberu," I wouldn't mind changing it, especially since "ass- > bell" conjures unflattering images. But it's not a Japanese name; it > is, in effect, a Japanese phonetic rendering of a foreign name, so I'd > prefer to stay as phonetically close as possible. I think it should > start with an "A," at least. Hm. Tough problem. That initial consonant cluster does not occur in French. However, there is a rare English man's name "Hosper" that sounds French; it may be French-derived. That is probably as close as English comes to "Asuberu". > > Kurotowa -> Kurt > > I like this. It's a lot better than any of the options I'd been > thinking of... But I wish we weren't translating a four-syllable name > into a one-syllable name. Do you know of any long forms of "Kurt" that > sound vaguely like "Kurotowa?" No. In fact, Kurt not only doesn't have a long form, but the name itself means "short" :-). > > I wouldn't change Kushana's name at all. > > Yeah, maybe "K'Shana" is kinda Star-Trekky after all. Not an > association I'd want to make. Not what I'd have done, but I didn't mind it, actually. > > Your translation of Yupa's joke is good, but a bit stiff. In > > idiomatic English, he would be much more likely to say "I can hardly > > complain, can I?" That would be a stronger comic line. But this is a > > judgment call, because "I wish I were in a position to lecture her" is > > good if you want to portray Yupa as being bit professorial, tilting > > him a bit more towards a sage character. > > I think I'll leave the line the way it is, for now, but I'll keep your > comments in mind. > > Yupa's language in Japanese is very serious. He hardly ever lets his > hair down, so to speak, with the exception perhaps of this very line. > So maybe it *should* be more conversational. Yeah, that's really a judgment call based on how you see Yupa's psychology. > Just one small point: you've used "come" twice in a row, and it has a > slightly different meaning in each case. May I ask why you changed > "descend" to "come down?" Is "descend" a more recent word? I did that deliberately, for two reasons. Yes, "descend" is more recent; it's part of the extensive Latinization of educated English vocabulary that took place during the century after the KJV. The other point is that KJV English is often repetitive in exactly this way, it's part of what gives the KJV prose its cadenced, poetic quality. > Maybe I misunderstand the word "trickster," but I'd have thought it > would be closer to "practical joker" than "shrewd politician." Kushana > is, of course, giving Kurotowa a good jab in the ribs, as in: "you play > the political game so transparently, you bastard." In recent English usage, I think the way educated people hear the word "trickster" is increasingly influenced by "the Trickster", the aboriginal coyote-god of the American Southwest who frequently becomes a victim of his own designs. In fact Kurotowa *is* a rather Trickster-like figure. So the implied jab I am suggesting is "you play the political game so transparently, watch out you don't get too coyote-clever for your own good." > > Kurotowa talks with the Titan: There is actually something closer > > to the Japanese that would work here. I would render it as > > "My ambitions stir with that monster's heart." > > Magnificent. It retains the poetry in the Japanese script. It does that. And has the additional advantage of sounding like a pivotal line in a Shakespearian tragedy. One thinks of Macbeth's "Is this a dagger I see before me?" That is precisely the effect you want here. -- <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:15:27 -0500 From: Takashi Toyooka To: Eric S. Raymond Subject: Re: Your translation of Nausicaa Hello. Sorry about the slight delay in my response. I've already started making some changes based on our conversation. On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 12:49:54PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > ...you should know that I am a Canadian "nisei," [...] > > > Oh. I thought your primary language might be French. I don't see a smiley, but you sound sarcastic. Sorry, I didn't mean to insult your intelligence, I was mainly just introducing myself. > Takashi Toyooka > > > Asberu -> Pero (like French "Pierre") > > > > As for "Asuberu," I wouldn't mind changing it, especially since > > "ass-bell" conjures unflattering images. But it's not a Japanese > > name; it is, in effect, a Japanese phonetic rendering of a foreign > > name, so I'd prefer to stay as phonetically close as possible. I > > think it should start with an "A," at least. > > Hm. Tough problem. That initial consonant cluster does not occur in > French. Wow, that's true. I never thought of that. > However, there is a rare English man's name "Hosper" that sounds > French; it may be French-derived. That is probably as close as > English comes to "Asuberu". Hmm. I'm not sure what I'll do. Thanks for all your thoughts. > > Just one small point: you've used "come" twice in a row, and it has > > a slightly different meaning in each case. May I ask why you > > changed "descend" to "come down?" Is "descend" a more recent word? > > I did that deliberately, for two reasons. [...] Ah. The more I thought about it, the more I thought it must have been deliberate. I've used the lines as you wrote them. Thanks. > In recent English usage, I think the way educated people hear the word > "trickster" is increasingly influenced by "the Trickster", the > aboriginal coyote-god of the American Southwest who frequently becomes > a victim of his own designs. That's interesting. By chance, a couple of days ago, I read a poem (posted on the city bus, of all places) that was inspired by aboriginal stories, and mentioned the Trickster. It's an excellent suggestion, but I still feel there's a certain gracefulness in translating one animal name with another. I may yet change my mind. I'll remember your suggestion, and I will, at the very least, mention it on the "Notes" page. ...which brings me to a request. Would you mind if I posted your E-mails on my site as part of the "Notes and Reflections" page? Thanks again for all the feedback. -- Takashi Toyooka http://www.pobox.com/~ttoyooka/
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:50:32 -0500 From: Eric S. Raymond To: Takashi Toyooka Subject: Re: Your translation of Nausicaa Takashi Toyooka: > On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 12:49:54PM -0400, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > > > ...you should know that I am a Canadian "nisei," [...] > > > > > Oh. I thought your primary language might be French. > > I don't see a smiley, but you sound sarcastic. Sorry, I didn't mean to > insult your intelligence, I was mainly just introducing myself. Nope, no sarcasm intended. > ...which brings me to a request. Would you mind if I posted your > E-mails on my site as part of the "Notes and Reflections" page? Go right ahead. > Thanks again for all the feedback. You're welcome. -- <a href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/">Eric S. Raymond</a>